Speaker 0 00:00:03 Welcome to the culture of things. Point with Brendan Rogers. This is a podcast where we talk culture leadership and teamwork and plus business.
Speaker 1 00:00:22 Hello everybody. I'm Brendan Rogers, the host of the culture things podcast. This is episode 36 today. I'm talking with Nathan Gray, born in Gosford and educated on the gold coast. Nathan was a committed hard-nosed and straight running insight center who gave his all for the clubs, state, and country. Nathan played three years of first 15 rugby for the South port school alongside former Wallaby captains, Nathan Sharp, and James slipper and represented Australia at under 19 and under 21 levels in 1997. He to boot for Queensland against new South Wales in Sydney. But by the end of the year, he turned to the dark side and toured with the new South Wales development squad. Nathan was then offered a new South Wales contract and he joined the war stars within seven months of his first word has matched who was in the Wallaby squad and wanted to BU against Scotland in Sydney.
Speaker 1 00:01:11 Nathan was a key part of what was the golden era of Australian rugby in 1998. He was in the squad as Australia completed their first ever three kneel clean sweep of a test series against New Zealand in 1999. He was a member of the world cup winning squad. And in 2001, he started in each match of the historic two, one series victory over the British and Irish lions. Nathan played 35 tests for Australia starting in 19, over the course of his six year international Korea in 2011, Nathan began his coaching career in Japan before joining the Melbourne rebels as an assistant coach, he was part of Michael checkers coaching staff that guarded the war stars to a maiden super rugby championship in 2014, and was also part of the coaching staff at the wallabies from 2014 to 2019. He joined the sun wolves in Japan for the 2020 super rugby season in the role as technical director before taking on his current role as high performance national programs coach for rugby Australia. The focus of our conversation today is culture leadership and teamwork as a player and coach in rugby union. Nathan, welcome to the culture things podcast.
Speaker 2 00:02:21 Nice, always good to be on board with the voice and, um, yeah, looking forward to June the third about all things 40 in, uh, in rugby moving forward.
Speaker 1 00:02:30 Awesome mate, look, thank you very much. A few accolades there. You've achieved a lot, both as a player and a coach. What I'd love you to do is just give the listeners a little bit of a story of your journey, pre rugby, you know, even pre joining TSS, the South port school. What was life like for Nathan Gray?
Speaker 2 00:02:47 Yeah, it's quite interesting because I sort of, I was born on the central coast I've in Gosford and, um, and then sort of at a young age of four, my father worked for BP overseas and he got moved overseas. And so I ended up living in new Guinea, lived in port Moresby for, for three years. And then he got moved again with work and got moved to Fiji, moved over to Fiji for threes living over there. And those experiences as a young kid, I didn't really realize how valuable they were for helping shape me as a person until I sort of looked back reflectively. Now that I'm a little bit older. Yeah. So I spent a bit of time over there. I've got an older brother and an older sister. They both went to boarding school when we were living in Fiji. And I stayed back with mum and dad because I was too young.
Speaker 2 00:03:33 So that dynamic of being away from your siblings and, and whatnot. And so I think it sort of shaped me a fair bit. And then yeah, the opportunity to go to boarding school on the gold coast, knowing my family history, now that my father never really had the opportunity to get a good education, he was from a broken family and it was something that he was adamant on that he'd sort of provided these kids with an opportunity for a good education that, that he missed out on. So mum and dad made a lot of sacrifices to send three kids to boarding school away from where they were living and working. And yeah, that was that's something that I sort of realized later in life about those sacrifices that you make the kids and having my own kids. Now you sort of reflect a lot on that. Yeah. That's sort of my story pre going to boarding school on the gold coast, where I met a lot of lifelong friends and, um, and ended up meeting paperwork yourself.
Speaker 1 00:04:23 Sure. We will get an opportunity in this episode to talk a little bit about the Southport school and my old school as well. Being Nudgee college is a healthy rivalry there in these GPS schools, but let's put that to one side for a minute. You touched on your experience as a young fellow living in a different country and how you didn't really realize the opportunity and the benefits of that thing. So young, and it's only later in life reflections. What are those reflections? What did that experience give you that helped you forge this career in rugby?
Speaker 2 00:04:55 Oh, I think as a, as a player and as a coach, sort of just the ability to, to fit into your environment and to make the most out of your environment, no matter what it is. Um, obviously as a, as a sort of six year old kid living in new Guinea, um, going to an international primary school and living in a foreign country, you just get on with it. That's the norm compliant, you don't whinge, but that's the environment you're in and you just make the most out of those situations. That's something that, you know, is really was embedded in me, you know, had a young age. I didn't really realize until I look back reflectively of how that sort of helped me be able to deal with situations, be self-motivating find the best out of poor situations or poor scenarios that you in and try and be someone who, in terms of your relationships with other people, you have to mold to other people, other people don't have to conform to what your beliefs are and exactly what you think.
Speaker 2 00:05:49 You have to have a really good self-awareness and be very empathetic and have an understanding to get along with different people, different cultures and different races and whatnot. So that's definitely something that I've really sort of tapped into. And, and then obviously growing up and, and doing some more further study, you kind of realize, wow, you know, those things that you sort of read about and you learn about and the psychological stuff, how important it is. And then I know those lights go on and I go, wow. Yeah, I was experiencing that. I didn't even know that I was going through it
Speaker 1 00:06:21 Might say great reflection. Let's tap into that a little bit. Let's look at the playing side of Nathan Gray first and how some of those things you talked about resilience, and I guess even in the intro and doing some research on your background, you know, people referred to you as his hard nose straight runner, it sort of aligns with what you just said. So how did that experience shape you as a player and how did you use that experience as a player to be the best you can, but also to be the best team player that you can?
Speaker 2 00:06:48 Yeah, it's a really good question, Mike, because I think I look back again as a, as a player, I was always was pretty limited and I realized early on, I wasn't, I wasn't a very big guy. I wasn't very fast, I wasn't overly skillful, but I really loved the competition and the competitive and the physicality side of the game. So that was, that was sort of something that drew me to rugby in the beginning. And I pondered why that was part of the game that I really enjoyed. And, you know, I look back to my childhood and sort of being the youngest and have an older brother who was three years older than me. And I just had this really deep seated memory of him kicking my ass in everything. And I just kept trying, kept trying and get drawing a him. I remember as a young fellow, we were in Fiji and I made my brother stay and we played squash for six hours and I couldn't beat him.
Speaker 2 00:07:43 I didn't pay him once, but I just kept going back, kept going back. I think that sort of competitive side of me was sort of drilled into me as a young bloke described with an older brother and playing different sports. But I've sort of figured out that my contribution to the team was going to be in that sort of physical and commitment sort of side of things. And that sort of didn't really come to fruition for me until I sort of was more probably in the, in that Wallaby environment, having discussions with coaches around, you know, why I was selected and why they sort of picked me in teams and whatnot. And it sort of flows into that coaching sort of things. As, you know, as a coach, you need all different types of players in your team. And, and I could provide something to the teams that I was in that coaches felt was really valuable. And as a coach now, I think, yeah, I'd like to have a couple of people like myself or in my team. You don't need too many of them. You can't have them all like that. But those types of people with those different skills are really needed in a tournament. I suppose I figured out what I could bring to the team and really focused on delivering that because I knew that was valuable to the teams that I was in.
Speaker 1 00:08:53 What's this going through my head again, is that definition of insanity, because you said about six hours of squash with your brother and, and they often say insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result, but you've taken a bit of a different slant on that mate resilience.
Speaker 2 00:09:09 Absolutely. Like we had a table tennis table underneath the house and it was just, my brother got jackets, may ask him to play all the time. Cause I could never beat him, but you know, the odd time I would. And, and then I'd start to strategize how I could draw a Bailey began. But yeah. So all his experiences as, as a young fellow growing up, it sort of helps Margie an idea,
Speaker 1 00:09:30 I guess, everything you've just said around a player and you sort of led into coaching a little bit. What is it that's really helped you taking that mindset into the coaching arena?
Speaker 2 00:09:39 Oh, it's, it's having an understanding of, and that respect of that different personalities are fine. There's no one perfect athlete or perfect player that you are going to get. And then you want, you don't want to try and replicate them and sort of cookie cut that type of person. You need so many different types of personalities, different skill sets in your team, and they all compliment each other. And the really good coaches are the coaches that just get that balance really right. You know, they have to have a really skillful guy that have a real hard nut, couple of hard nuts that have a couple of guys who have freakish talent, but can, you know, can cause scenarios for you. And then off the field, you know, you have a couple of guys who are bloody smart ass jokers. You have a couple of guys who are really serious ever guys that don't take themselves too seriously and getting that balance right.
Speaker 2 00:10:31 And understanding the sort of the psychology of, of the pliers and then the team environment. That's a real skill. It's a real learned skill. And that's something that I am, I'm continually learning. And I played under and I've coached with some really, really exceptional coaches over my career. So to tap into that and draw on things that they do well is something that I've done, but also draw on the things that I think I, you know, I probably wouldn't have gone down that path and then putting your own individual slant on, on how you want to play the game and how you want the team culture. And the team environment to be set up is something that is a constant ongoing process because at the end of the day, you want, you want to perform, you want to perform. And I think the focus has become so sharp on performance at the professional level that we've tended to drift away a little bit from the personality and the relationship side of what being in a team's all about that joyous things that essentially have nothing to do with performance. But when you break down performance, all those little things that are evident, and then you break down poor performance or consistently poor performance, you go, you know what, there's a couple of those things there that are really missing that I stand out like dog's balls.
Speaker 1 00:11:45 Like once again, lots of great points you make. Let's just tap into that relationship side. What's the difference that relationships and quality strong professional relationships make in your rugby environment.
Speaker 2 00:11:59 It starts with having that, you know, you have a good relationship. You're going to trust the people that you hang around with and that you involve yourself with. And that trust comes in in lots of different forms. You have to work hard from a rugby perspective to get the ball across the line. You need a gambit of skills and techniques and where not to be able to do that. And you can't do it on your own. You have to trust and have the confidence in the players around you to be able to help you do your job. And then as a collective do the team's job. So having that trust in the players around you is a very easy thing to say, and the sort of try and emulate. But the reality of earning that trust comes from, you know, hours of training, hours of footage, watching footage, taking the time to get to know each other, spending time off the field together, having a healthy respect for each other and having conflict with each other as well. Like being honest with each other when you're not happy, or if you disappointed with their performance or, you know, you're being honest saying, look, I really need your help here being vulnerable. Those types of things go to building that trust amongst the players. And then that translates to a good performance on the field.
Speaker 1 00:13:11 Is there a time when you look at your playing career in your coaching career, where you felt that the robustness in the conversation, the vulnerability, the trust that's developed in amongst either the playing or the coaching or the playing and coaching group where that's really been, you felt it was excellent for you.
Speaker 2 00:13:29 Oh yeah. Like I have a number of times jumped to mind, but for me it was 2004 leading into 2005 super rugby season. This is as, as a player, you know, you and McKenzie was the coach of the Walters and we'd sort of been bumbling along it at the year when I had rang the client from leading teams, come in and do some work with the team. And we did a, we did an exercise that was a stop start, keep exercise where an individual would be selected from the squad. So you might have a squad of a squad of 30 players and maybe 15 staff. So we were in a meeting. One guy really deserve a long, a long period of time, but one girl would, would leave the room. And then the whole group would talk about that individual around behaviors and actions that they should stop doing behaviors and actions that they should start doing and then behaviors and actions they should take doing.
Speaker 2 00:14:24 So the group added it out for sort of 10 minutes, and then that person would come back into the room and then they'd get the feedback from the group. I remember having that done to myself and also to another guy who's a dear close mate of mine. And he was the captain of the team at the time. And he's perception of how the playing group and the staff saw him was so different to what the reality was. He was made the captain of the team and he's very reluctant later wits, very quiet guy. And the feedback that he got was mate, we want you to start backing out a small, we want you to be more dominant as a leader. We want you to be really vocal. We want you to tell us when we're not maintaining those standards that you do all the time and for wits and having a conversation with him after that, he was just blown away.
Speaker 2 00:15:13 He's like, Holy shit. I didn't realize that that's how I was perceived or that my actions were read that way by the playing group and the staff. And then it was a matter of, for him. It was like, okay, these guys have been honest and open with giving me that information of being vulnerable and opening myself up to receive that positive and negative feedback. I know what to do. I've got some action points. I can go and action that. And we did that process for a number of people. And it was quite confronting for, for a few guys, but in terms of growth and understanding and building respect amongst one another, it was, it was massive. And it's, it's really stuck with me
Speaker 1 00:15:49 What I'd love to know. And I'd love you to share in that. What did you take away from that in the start doing stop, doing, keep doing.
Speaker 2 00:15:56 I got the feedback of something for me to stop doing was being so hard on my teammates. That was definitely something that I felt I didn't really realize that I thought I was just being demanding and wanting to get the best out of guys. But the feedback I got was we love your enthusiasm. We love the way you want to apply the guy, but everyone isn't the same. And that was going back to what we were talking about earlier is having that, understanding that respect and knowledge, that your way isn't necessarily the best way and that other people don't function in the same way that you do. And that's fine and that's fine. So that was some great learnings from my perspective around, okay. There's lots of different, different ways to get the same result. The way I might go about my preparation and my performance is different to someone else, but that doesn't mean that it's bad, but it just means that it's different.
Speaker 2 00:16:48 And they were both getting to the same destination. And that was something that really, that I needed highlighting something for me to start doing was taking a bit more of an interest in the younger guys, in the squad, coming into the squad and sort of helping them out a little bit. That was always at the sort of end of my super rugby career. Then 2004, 2005, and the young guys, where are you? You kind of come across a little bit intimidating. My perception was that, and I'm a cruisy. I'm pretty relaxed. I'm like back, um, on the dramas and the, and these young guys are going mate. Well, we're worried about when you walk in the room, not to look at you. And that was, again, that was something that I, I didn't see that I didn't, I just didn't see that because I had this self perception that, yeah, I was pretty approachable.
Speaker 2 00:17:37 I was pretty relapsed. And then I could turn the switch on and be quite serious. So getting that balance right. Was some feedback that I got. And again, it was great for me because it was okay, these guys need this from me and want this from me. And I can do that. It's not a big change for me. It's just a matter of identifying that, knowing it, and then going out and actioning it. So, yeah, that's sort of the, the two big takeaways that I got from that process. And I've been involved in teams where I've really wanted to do that. And there's been some pushback from other coaches. And to me, that's, that's a red flag in itself that if you're not willing to sort of get in that path, then maybe you're not wanting to hear what the reality and the truth is.
Speaker 1 00:18:21 Where do you think that pushback lies? What's the root cause of that pushback and what you've seen, have you, have you nailed that?
Speaker 2 00:18:30 No, I think it's the, I think it's the potential. That's not undermining is not the right word, but the potential that the course and the road that you were heading down might need to be adjusted. And therefore you might be criticized as a, as a coach. Your philosophies might be questioned and criticized, and that might not sit well with you. But in saying that it all depends what set of glasses you want to put on to look at that information, doesn't it. It's where do you see that as a negative, or do you see that, see that as your pliers talking your staff, talking to you about how they feel things can be better. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're same what you're doing, or the course that we're going on is wrong or it's bad. It's just, let's look at it and talk about it. I've also been told that they're leading teams that like, you need to be very careful. I heard a couple of NFL teams have gone down the path and it was facilitated really poorly. And it ended up being, uh, you know, uh, disintegrated a lot of relationships and culture within a couple of organizations and it wasn't handled well. So, you know, it's, it's a very powerful tool, but I think it needs to be, um, managed and facilitated really well. And again, that's a real skill.
Speaker 1 00:19:45 You are a hundred percent spot on. And the leading teams guys who are, and girls, there are just absolutely experts in that craft, but it is a very much a real skill. You've got to be able to read the room and read the team effectively before you even introduced an exercise like that. What I really love, and I shouldn't say all, I'm always fascinated by this because it's just so common, even in my introduction about this hard-nosed person that you are in this defensive, you know, really built your game off the back of the fence, your background, as far as a young fellow, growing up in places like P and G and Fiji, and your words where you just, you just got almost stuff, you know, you move forward and you became quite independent, but then how that's rubbed off into what people gave you feedback about what you should stop doing is people perceive that as being, not that comfortable when they're with you and you walk into a room and the, and the, the room changes,
Speaker 2 00:20:34 It's your own perception, but against the reality and people are making those decisions and those assumptions based on your behavior, whether it's your expression on your face, your body language, your tone, when you're talk, how you get your message across a very sociable, do you make an effort to sort of be approachable and being approachable? It doesn't necessarily mean one way is the right way. And I've learned that as a coach now, where I've had to go into a, you know, go into a dining room, I have a strong philosophy of when, uh, you know, when you're in a team environment, you tend to go and you have meals together regularly. So you tend to always go and sit with similar people. Is it like, as a coaching staff, you might go and find another coaching staff sit on a table or not. So, but I'm really conscious now of going in and sitting next to someone who I haven't had.
Speaker 2 00:21:25 I don't know that well, I don't know a lot about them and all, and all feel a little bit uncomfortable for the first couple of minutes. And I can tell you, honestly, I've sat there with my plate loaded and I've scanned the room and I've gone. Oh, okay. I want to go and sit over there. I don't really want to go and sit over there because I don't really know that car that well, and then go and do it. Now's the time. And that sort of a tool that I've used to try and force myself to put myself out of that comfort zone to get to know someone better, because I know how important it is.
Speaker 1 00:21:57 How many of the players or coaching staff is sitting there thinking don't make eye contact. He might sit here. Don't make, you might sit here.
Speaker 2 00:22:05 Yeah. And if, if that's the case, look, that's my problem. That's my problem to diffuse. It's not the pliers. That's my problem. So I've got to lead the conversation. I've got to make the effort. It's funny. Like I've sat. I sat in a restaurant, uh, had breakfast with a guy is a very coy guy. And he's a very sort of inward looking guy, very quiet. And I'd tried to sit with him a couple of times and had a couple of awkward conversations, whatnot. But this breakfast, I went, right. I'm going to test him out today. I'm going to sit down. And I was only two people at the table were sitting across from each other. I'm going to stay strong. I'm not going to say anything until he starts the conversation. 15 minutes of dead silence got up left and having a chat to him after it. He was like, Oh, you know, no drama. I had no dramas. It was, uh, I was just having a bricky mind thoughts. And then I'll finish our lives that we need is mine. It was, everything was normal. That was sweet. That dynamic is really interesting. And everyone's different. Everyone's different. Some guys want a very talkative. Other guys are very quiet. So it's interesting.
Speaker 1 00:23:20 Absolutely really great example. Thanks for sharing that. I want to throw a bit of a curve ball in there, back to your schooling days, TSS. Now I'm sure your parents are absolutely fantastic people, but I'm really struggling to understand how they chose a school like TSS as a boarding school versus Nudgee college. What was their thinking?
Speaker 2 00:23:43 Yeah. And it's stupid. It certainly wasn't rugby biased because it was based to be an rugby. I would have gone to Nigeria. Naji was an absolute powerhouse when I started at school and TSS was a genuine minnow of rugby, but my father's mum lived on the lift on the gold coast. She lived at <inaudible>. That was my dad's only sort of family in Australia. And his sister lived on the gold coast as well. So yeah, that was my sister went to St. Hilda's and my brother went to TSS. Yeah. We just followed said, that's the reasoning why we ended up there.
Speaker 1 00:24:21 That's a pretty good reason, mate. I understand that. But I guess you, you sort of busted one of the, maybe myths that you and I joke about, but this is the first question I want to throw into your round. A bit of a trivial pursuit around GPS schools, which school has won the most rugby premier ships in its history.
Speaker 2 00:24:41 Wow. Which school I'd have to say? I'd have to say probably not.
Speaker 1 00:24:47 Well done, mate. Well done. Matchy college is 42 premierships. Do you know how many, the Southport school of warm?
Speaker 2 00:24:57 Well, who's second. There might be a better way. Who's second.
Speaker 1 00:25:00 I'm asking the questions here.
Speaker 2 00:25:05 So 42, I reckon maybe 10.
Speaker 1 00:25:09 Pretty good. My 11, 11. So Nazi is almost four times better than DSS. That is bullshit. Right? Look, stats do not lie. Nathan, look, let's, let's move on. Let's move on. Thank you for raising that point about rugby and Nudgee college. I appreciate it. No worries. What I'm really interested in understanding about Nathan Gray. The person is I've been really fortunate to know and interact with a number of people generally in the football space. That's my background that applied to high level and elite level of football. There's so many of them that they finished their elite playing days, their professional sporting days. And the last thing they want to go into is coaching. I really want to get out of the environment. So you, you certainly took some time away, obviously since playing, but then coming back into coaching, what is it that drives Nathan greater? You had this great plan career, and now you're developing a really fantastic and solid coaching career.
Speaker 2 00:26:15 Well, when I was applying, they used to ex players used to come in and sort of have a chat to the team sometimes. And I was so switched off about that and all that or whatever, like, uh, just let us get on with applying and under a number of different coaches and they're all good, some bad, some great. And I had no motivation at all to go into coaching at all. I wanted to go into advertising. And then when I finished in thousand four, 2005 in Australia, I signed my deal to go to Japan. And part of the deal was I had to coach as well. And at the time I just went, yeah, that problems. Yeah, whatever I'll coach. And I was very fortunate because I didn't Thompson who works at rugby Australia. Now he signed it as the head coach of the team that I was going to.
Speaker 2 00:27:03 So there was an Australian head coach, and then I came in as sort of a marquee player. And then I was going to coach as well and Tommo sort of set up the whole program. And then he just goes all looking at you, you just look after the backs, both attack and defense. And then although a little bit of the defensive staff and although all their lawn and whatnot, and I jumped into it and I just found it so intoxicating, really fun and enjoyable. And the ability to just pass on a little bit of information from our experience to these Japanese guys, then seeing them go into the field, deliver that, and then get their confidence on the field and then that confidence on the field and translate it to off the field as being really good guys. It was something that I thought to myself, man, I've been pretty lucky with the rugby pass that I've had from, uh, from applying and then being coached by different coaches.
Speaker 2 00:28:00 I really enjoyed, started to enjoy the, the coaching side of it from the benefit that it gave the players. That was really my motivation or not motivation, not the right word. That was my, that was the drug that I sort of became addicted to, was seeing opportunities for players to get better, helping them achieve that, and then witnessing the confidence and the growth in the players and then the team that I was involved in. So yeah, I have a real strong memory of, of being over acute in, which is where I was. And we were in second division when I arrived there. And there was a game that we played our final game to get promoted into the top league over there, which is the super rugby of Japan. And we played in this stadium in folk worker and there was 15,000 people at this game.
Speaker 2 00:28:49 10,000 of them were from the company that we were working with. We reckon the CEO sent out the memo saying, if you don't go to this game, you're going to be fired and just looking around them. And we won the game and we got promoted to top league. And just looking around all these Japanese people, all the players, all the staff and the genuine joy jubilation that the guy had brought to them and the result had brought to them as individuals. And then as a company as well with something, you know, I sat back and I sort of looked, looked at it all on. I thought, you know, that's, that's, that's bloody awesome. And it wasn't, you know, as apply applying for the wall of easily kind of that support that we had was just so good. And so consistent, you kind of did take that support a little bit for granted and you forgot how powerful it was.
Speaker 2 00:29:40 And just seeing it in a different country in a, like a small second division team that we were when we first started, it was really intoxicating. And that's what sort of lit the fuse for me around coaching. And I was in Japan and coaching over there. And then rod McQueen gave me a call at the end of 2010. And he said, mate, I'm going to be the head coach. And I'm setting up the Melbourne rebels, which is going to be a new, super rugby side coming in, blah, blah, blah. Would you be interested in putting your hat in the ring to come over and be as a coach? And I was, wow. I thought, yeah. Okay. No dramas did my presentation, put my hat in the ring. And then next thing I know I was lucky enough to get the gig and then moved the family back to Melbourne.
Speaker 2 00:30:27 And it started there in, in a, in a side that I was really excited to be a part of because you know, it wasn't you, and you could really put your stamp on it. And, you know, I still have great memories and friends in Melbourne from that time of setting it up. And again, just highlights to me the, the beauty of our game and how good the relationships are and the people involved in it are. So, yeah, Danny, the only problem is if, if I find a different energy, but I sort of dropped down a few rungs on the ladder,
Speaker 1 00:30:59 I've got another question for you, but soon as they you've raised that again, what I'd like to do is just ask you another trivial pea shoot GPS question. And that is out of the two schools St. Josias nutsy college and the Southport school, which has won the most basketball premierships.
Speaker 2 00:31:20 Yes. TSS is one of the most possible they're very strong basketball.
Speaker 1 00:31:24 Unfortunately not, unfortunately not TSS has won three premierships and St. Joseph's Nudgee college has won seven basketball apprenticeships. We know that we are only a little bit more than twice as good in basketball. Getting back to the main topic, what I'm also really interested in. That's a really fantastic example of the coaching experience and that euphoria around that and more, what I heard through your voice was actually the pleasure that you had in, in helping that team. It wasn't about you as about the team. How has that started to shape you as a coach? And what does that legacy look for you as a coach moving forward?
Speaker 2 00:32:04 It's an interesting one because that ability to extract the best out of people and get them to be their best is, is something that is hard to do. And, you know, obviously the success of Australian rugby in the last sort of 10 years, it hasn't been great, but you know, it's all about, you know, you're very, self-reflective on how you can do things better, how you can improve what you've been doing, how you can get more out of the players, how you can get them to understand the importance of some key things around the game that they need to get better at that sort of search for that continual learning is something that I'm very, very interested in, in sort of diving into at the moment around how can we get more and be better at what we're doing and that sort of search for doing that.
Speaker 2 00:32:48 And that, I suppose, from a legacy perspective, I'd love for someone to have a conversation with a player 10 years after they've retired and they're talking about footy, and you get mentioned as someone who, you know, they enjoyed being in the environment with, they learned from they got a new appreciation or a different appreciation for the game. That would be something that I'd be very proud of in terms of knowing that would happening 2015. I had Adam Ashley Cooper at the end of the world cup was sitting down and having a few beers. And he's like, Nate, you guys matter the last couple of years, I've really enjoyed working with you and Eric. And I'm actually thinking all my gun become defense coach. And I thought to myself, I thought, you know what? I've had some, I've had some input to that kid or that young man.
Speaker 2 00:33:34 And that's awesome if he thinks that he has enjoyed and experienced the coaching that I've been involved in in the team environment. And he wants to sort of take that on as something where he feels as though he could give back. That's something that, you know, that there are sort of certainly very proud of and chuffed at to hear at the time. That's what I'd like to sort of be in terms from a legacy perspective is, you know, that you're an honest person, you made a difference. You lit a spark in someone and created that enjoyment of the game and the relationship that you have with them with something that's memorable and that they'll hang onto for a long period of time,
Speaker 1 00:34:09 Given that the coaching is, is where it sits for you now. And I imagine at some point you will be a head coach. I think that's where you want to go. What are the leadership qualities based on your own experiences, your own qualities, the qualities you've seen in leaders that you've played under, what are those leadership qualities that you value for maybe future leaders of a team that you're head coach of
Speaker 2 00:34:32 First and foremost, you've got to have a really good understanding of what your strengths are and what your, what your weaknesses are, both from a rugby knowledge perspectives, but also from a personality perspective. And I've learned that from sort of observing and being involved in other coaches, you know, you look at coaches that are being coached by Bob Doyle is someone who a world cup winning coach who was a wealth of knowledge on every aspect of the game. Then you've got someone like a Rob McWane who, you know, he's knowledge and he's visions of the game were great, but he surrounded himself with some really, really good people around the technical, really specific technical sides, parts of the game, that balanced team out Eddie giants is another one. Who's a very good leader, but he also identifies his weaknesses around different aspects of the game or the, all the different benefits that other coaches could bring to his teams.
Speaker 2 00:35:24 So he goes and gets those people and gets that balance, working with CEC. He identified that it was interesting because he identified in me, he sort of said to me, he goes, mate, on a Lebanese immigrant, who's come to Australia and I'm coaching the wallabies. Like what connection have I bloody got with the Walter piece? He goes, yeah, I want it to be, I want it to be a while of the one plane, but not really like, and he sort of saw me as someone who had played for Australia had represented Australia and he is sort of not too complimentary, sort of said, mate, you're the closest best horse either or now. So I'd need to have you involved. I need you to bring that to the team. So sort of understanding yourself is I suppose, where I'm, where I'm getting at is a really important actually to have as a leader and being genuine in your delivery and how you sort of want to present yourself.
Speaker 2 00:36:16 That's certainly something that I sort of feel very strongly about also your, your leadership style. You know, whether you're, you need to jump around with a different leadership style, you need to be that democratic leader. You need to be that authority leader. Occasionally you need to drop into those different types of leadership styles to get the best out of your players, because that's ultimately the goal of what you want to try and do you need to provide an environment where the players can come in, feel safe, feel comfortable, have trusting one another and then go about building and performing and being the best that they can possibly be. So understanding individuals is, is probably something that's very, very important as well. And that comes with being able to drift in and out of those different leadership styles, to be able to extract the best out of people.
Speaker 2 00:37:04 Another sort of attribute is, is empathy and, and having a genuine understanding of the players. And again, that's easily said and very hard to deliver. You've got, you know, a squad of 40 guys, everyone who thinks they should be crying, everyone who thinks they're probably should be selected. So you're dealing with selection issues and knowing how to go about that and that process. Well, you know, obviously delivering a few shit sandwiches to players your doing it in a way that their contribution is valued, their opinion is valued. They're welcoming the team. They're very, they, they need to feel safe and very comfortable in the team to be able to perform and to stay persistent that their opportunity might come. So being able to do that as a, as a coach and as a leader is, is again, that's hard to do and have all been involved with the coaches.
Speaker 2 00:37:55 And it was sort of, you know, you get the shits with players or you have a grievance with someone and that can impact their selection, the ability to step above that and then sort of go, okay, what are the pieces of the puzzle that I need? How am I going to do that? And how am I going to get the best out of each of the applies that I'm involved with? So being genuine, understanding your, your leadership, you know, your strengths and weaknesses, the ability to jump between leadership styles is critical in achieving confidence and comfort with your playing group and your staff as well. And that's something that often gets forgotten about is the relationship as a leader with his staff. It's usually just the coach and the players, but the coach and the staff relationship is so critical in building that environment where people can perform. And I suppose that's the perfect segue into the last point for me, is as a leader, creating the environment for performance, and that has a number of different arrows that go into it around doing that environment, creating the right culture, getting the right people and having the right resources and, and basically having a real clear vision and purpose of why you've come together and then going about setting the course to go and achieve something
Speaker 1 00:39:11 At risk of putting you off side with any past teammates or anything. Is there a point where that comes to mind that may not have been a captain of the wallabies, but demonstrated these leadership qualities that you really value,
Speaker 2 00:39:22 Hopefully your listeners aren't too young or know some of these players, but the leadership of a team or the leadership group, the sort of buzzwords that you hear a lot of the moment, I've got a real strong feeling that, you know, we tend to sort of try and find this one person in a squad or these two people in a group that you go, yeah, there are leaders and they have great values. They have all these things that are excellent. That's what we want to do. Where the reality of any successful team, you look across any sport. Everyone's a leader. Everyone is a leader in their own way. And probably a couple of guys that jumped to mind for me, a guy like when I was playing easy guy, not in early days of is someone like Dave Wilson who was a, a back row.
Speaker 2 00:40:05 He was the David Polk Hawk of the golden era of, in that sort of nineties through to 2003, he was a guy who just performed consistently. Well, all the time when he spoke, you listened. He was a really lovely guy to be around really honest, but not put on a pedestal as a leader. He just went about his business, had a strong understanding of his impact in the team and how he could help the team and just went about doing it. You hear a lot of conversations around, you know, John ales and George, Greg, and around bank regulators. Yes, they were. But their leadership style is very different to each other, both those two, but was done in a way that brought the best out of the time. You know, the 99 world cup team, that one would have had seven really good leaders in a starting 15 in going into 2003, playing is still a core.
Speaker 2 00:41:01 Like it would have been half a dozen guys who were all leading, not just one buyer. And that's, that's probably a bit of a downfall of, I think the wallabies over a period of time, when all is involved with them was we sort of had Marco hook as a, as a sort of standout really good later. And he needed, he needed support and he needed help. That's probably our fault as a coaching group that we didn't help develop that. And we didn't help nurture that a little bit more, but you need to have a group of leaders in your team and not someone who sits back and goes, Oh, he's going to do the leading that's when you start to get that, you know, one guy starts to get pushed to the top and everyone looks to him for everything. And then for that person, they get drained. There's too much demands on them and they try too hard and they're only delivering their best, but it's just too draining. So you need to have a good spread of leadership.
Speaker 1 00:41:53 I feel like it's time for GPS trivial pursuit. Three question. I think you like this one. So this is cricket. Now when we talk cricket, BBC is first the outright leaders in the premiership table. The number of premierships with 35, who do you think is the second school with GPS cricket permit ships
Speaker 2 00:42:14 Has to be, it would have to be tasteless
Speaker 1 00:42:17 Well done, mate. It is TSS with 20 strong, very strong, very strong Nudgee college is actually third from bottom on 10. So you can say that TSS is double as good as Nudgee college at this moment in time in cricket, I want to move across to teamwork. What does teamwork look like in rugby for you?
Speaker 2 00:42:45 It's a combination chemo, a combination of an number of different things coming together, and then it's delivered on the field. You know, Y implies a confident in delivering. They're going to mind Sykes, but that teamwork and that cohesion is very visible from a number of different sort of metrics from a purely analytical perspective. But also just if you're watching a game, you can see the teamwork and the cohesion when everyone's working positively, they're working hard for each other. They're getting off the ground. They're getting positioned early. They're executing really well. So teamwork on the field looks like a game that is flying. They're able to build pressure and they're actually being able to put pressure on the opposition and in score points. So that's sort of what it looks like on the field. And then teamwork off the field for me is again, a number of little different things that you're going to see around the training paddock in the locker room, a number of different things around teamwork that are going to go into creating a really positive environment.
Speaker 2 00:43:49 So just, uh, a consistently delivered gritter behaviors that shows each other and the outside, what the team's about, you know, their ability to prepare. Well, look after each other, looking out for each other off the field, as well as on the field and genuinely be good people to each other and be diligent with their work. That's what teamwork looks like. It's a very individual thing. Teamwork. I know that sounds weird, but it's a very individual thing that when everyone's doing those things well and consistently that that's going to transfer to trust and understanding, and then obviously a good performance on the field.
Speaker 1 00:44:26 Very interesting, what you just said about teamwork, community, but individual thing as well, a hundred percent believe that there are certain traits and qualities that individuals have that make them great team players for you and in the environment you've been in and what you've experienced, what stands out for you about someone or people that have been fantastic team players,
Speaker 2 00:44:48 It would be the consistency and also their demeanor from a consistency perspective that always try and at a high level, they're always well prepared. It's not that they don't make mistakes or make errors. It's if I do the errors in my going flat out the errors in my, with really good intention, there's no lazier. And then off the field, it's, you know, they're very approachable. They're very confident in what they're doing. They're very willing to have conversations around how you can help them, but also how they can help you. And, and that they speak up, they voiced their opinions. They let someone know if they're not happy, but conversely, they'll also show gratitude. They'll show other people that they're very thankful for what they're doing. And they're very appreciative of what other people are doing. So to have all those attributes is quite rare. But if you want to strive towards being an excellent team night and being a, someone who can contribute to your organization in a really positive way, I think they're the attributes that you want to be displaying.
Speaker 1 00:45:54 Conversely, what does a really poor team player look like in your environment?
Speaker 2 00:46:00 Well, the first, first thing that comes to mind, familiar, selfish, they don't have that level of understanding how their actions, their frame of mind they had the main, uh, is going to impact others and selfish is, is the first thing that comes to mind. And that's a difficult one as well. Because if you look into the, into the world and the mind of a professional athlete by Nike, you need to be a selfish person. You need to be a person that you are making a lot of sacrifices or choices around giving things up to make sure that you're okay. The people around, you have to have an understanding that you can't do a lot of things because you are really focused on your professional career and you can't be going to parties. You can't be gone away for the weekend. You can't go to family's weddings and what not.
Speaker 2 00:46:49 And from one lens, it is a selfish environment to be in. But it's important that guys understand that everyone is in the same boat. And then you need to flip that switch to having that sort of empathy towards, okay, everyone's making these choices around that, but the selfish behavior needs to be for the betterment of the team. So you're selfish and you're focused ability to do what's best for the team. And the selfishness can be sort of exhibited in a negative mind when you're in a team environment, your needs wants desires are prioritized above someone else's and those types of people in an organization, they're, they're your vampires. They're the guys who were girls. They're that, they're the people who are sucking the blood out of the organization. They're detracting from people being their best or people getting on and doing their best because everyone's not always going to be their best.
Speaker 2 00:47:48 But if I know that it's okay to have a bit of a shit day and you're going to be supported and whatnot, then you're going to get out of that negative mindset pretty quickly. But the selfish people, the vampires tend to be the ones who are just constantly draining the resources of the organization. And they, in the harsh reality of professional sport these days, you've got to identify those people and you've got to get rid of them. They're going to hurt you. You want to be, you know, you're going to be a later in, uh, an, a follower. You don't need vampires
Speaker 1 00:48:20 In your coaching experience so far. Have you had that and again, not about sort of naming people specifically, but where that's sort of come about and even how you've helped deal with that or how you've had to deal with it.
Speaker 2 00:48:33 Yeah. I think, you know, hindsight's always 2020, but a really good learning from my perspective was, you know, was Israel and it's, it's quite, uh, look, it's not really controversial. It's just the way it is. But Israel, Folau and his, and his beliefs and his stance, which became very public, you know, he was in the team environment for five years. And to think that, that didn't have some sort of erosive impacts in the team is probably a little bit naive. But as coaches at the time, we couldn't really see that, you know, we were sort of saying he's performances is his application to training he's ability to, to help other teammates in that as being excellent. But under the surface, clearly there's something, there was something that was going on and to think that players weren't significantly impacted by that. It's just crazy. So it's a really interesting point because, you know, you have someone like him, who's a world-class player in your organization yet still there's some erosive features going on in the, you're not really sure about that. You can't really put your finger on that or eroding the quality of the team and the, and the culture that you're trying to create. So yeah, he's someone who really jumps to mind around that. And I just find that I look back openly and honestly, and I go, yeah, you know, we really, really missed that as a coaching group. And then that significantly impacted our ability to get the best out of the time. No idea.
Speaker 1 00:50:09 I know you've been dying to talk rowing for our next trivial pursuit question. So let me ask you this question out of the Southport school and Nudgee college, which has the best wind ratio in the head of river with GPS rowing, that is
Speaker 2 00:50:28 You are moving the goalposts, my friend, this ratio that is absolutely rubbish goes Naji only started rowing.
Speaker 1 00:50:37 Please answer the question.
Speaker 2 00:50:39 I'll still say, except for it has a higher ratio.
Speaker 1 00:50:42 Unfortunately, that's a wrong answer. Nathan, as you indicated, Naji DDO only joined the head of river competition and the rowing competition in 2002. And as, since one, nine heads of river, the same school is one 21 overall, but they started in 1918. So St. Joseph's Nudgee college ratio in rowing, as far as winds, head of river is far superior than the South port school. I want to move into culture of rugby. There's that famous book legacy, which is all around the old blacks for many years. I guess you can say that the culture in Australian rugby. And I think unfortunately it's probably been just a measure of, of results on the field, but what is this rugby culture that the all blacks have? And how does that seem to differ from so many other teams in the world?
Speaker 2 00:51:34 Like a lot of cultures, it's a product of the environment and it's unique. Yeah. So trying to compare a New Zealand rugby culture to an Australian rugby culture, to an English rugby culture is very different around their environments. Look at New Zealand as a country, from a sporting comparison for the amount of people that they have. They're extremely successful across a number of different sports. You got netball and rugby are probably the two biggest, but from a participation perspective, rugby over there is light years ahead of any other sport available, any other sport of hour. And then you look at, even over in the UK where you have soccer or football, and then you've got rugby from miles and more, more, so much now into females as being two major competitors for athletes. And then again, football probably has the upper hand there and you go to Australia where we'd have rugby, we've got rugby league, we've got AFL, we've got football, the drawer.
Speaker 2 00:52:39 And the competition for athletes in Australia is not matched anywhere else in the world. And that's just the dynamic of where we are. That's just the reality. That's not an excuse or a one comparison to the other. It's just, that's the reality of where we're at. So trying to create and draw the best possible talent into your sport is, is not an issue, but it's something that New Zealand doesn't have to deal with that we do. And in saying that even when we get a hold of players and when they come into the, into the rugby fraternity, into their rugby environment, there's so many great values that are instilled in people involved in rugby from a very young age, like junior clubs men's and women's clubs. When you look at all the different competitions around Australia and junior and rugby in itself is really thriving. And the performance of the national team is critical.
Speaker 2 00:53:31 Yeah. And we haven't had that. We haven't had that success. We haven't had that consistent success for, for a few years. But again, you look at the lens that you look at that through. Look, we've played in the world cup fall in 2015. Yeah. I'm competing in the world cup for 2015. We've beaten New Zealand on a number of occasions between 15 and 19. You know, a number of times played really well. Just last few times, we've been, been consistent with being beaten. We haven't had the Bledisloe cup for 18 years, but you need to win a majority of games to win that thing back, but it's not like we can't beat them on that. Haven't been beaten. So it's all depends on the lens that you look through. I think the rugby culture in Australia is really healthy. The relationships of people that I speak to and their desire for the national team to do well is overwhelmingly really positive.
Speaker 2 00:54:24 The friends that we've got at young ages of families who are coming into rugby are just so Boyd by the type of people and the relationships and the welcoming nature of what our game offers and the fact that it is a global game is something that is truly unique to rugby. So I think that having a look at that broader culture of rugby in Australia is really healthy. And then if you narrow it right down to the culture of the wallabies, and I've had a real intricate knowledge of that, it's something that is a real work on for us. When I first came into the world, the environment 2014, Michael checker, we adopted a Wallaby side that was on the sort of you and Mackenzie, 2014. You and Mackenzie resigned from the Wallaby role after the rugby championships. And then the wallabies were to leave on a spring tour, five weeks to the UK in two weeks.
Speaker 2 00:55:20 And they had no, what would be coach there's no coach. So they essentially asked Michael chatter if he'd do the job. And he was super happy to do that and then asked if we'd come along and sort of on that trip, we sort of discovered that, you know, the guys sort of didn't really have a, a great deal of purpose in what they were doing and a really clear understanding of why that was trying to do what they were trying to do. So check when about creating, uh, an identity piece where the players could be really honored and could tie themselves to that identity piece. And that was something that was very instrumental in the success of what we had going through 15 sort of 16 and the ability for us to evolve that culture from there after getting that success is something that I've certainly learned as a coaches.
Speaker 2 00:56:11 That's really important to do as a coach is to evolve the culture of your team. You can't rely on something that's worked really well one year, and then think that it's going to work the next, you don't have to change it, but you do have to evolve. And that's something where I think we haven't, haven't done that quite well enough. And from having conversations with guys in the, in the world environment, now that directly coming on board with the new coaching staff has been able to sort of reignite that and start to evolve that culture within that Australian team. So
Speaker 1 00:56:43 You were in the know we're outsiders looking in here, I guess we only see and hear what the media allows us to see in here. It was one thing that you would change or adapt or whatever that word is within the wallabies today to help really create solid foundations and this cultivation and evolution of culture, what would that be for you?
Speaker 2 00:57:07 Oh, for me, it's the identification and the application of the aggression and intimidation in the game. It's something that was, it was very much taken for granted during successful periods. And I think it's drifted away a lot from the Australian game and stuff from a lack of trying, I think it's just, we need to maybe reeducate our players around the grocery side of the game intimidation side of the game and how important that is to allowing you to do what you need to do to perform really well. And that aggression and that intimidation is not a legal play. It's not foul play. It's just being really excited and up for the contest and understanding how important it is to be physically dominant over your opposition. You know, you look back to successful teams, you know, so that I figure last year, the world cup, current world cup champions were excellent in that arena. Excellent. In that arena, you know, England getting very good in that part of the game, around, you know, their ability to do that. You see when the New Zealand is a very consistent in delivering that Australia when they get it right, we'd beat anyone. It's the consistency of delivering that. So that's probably one thing that I would love to just get a big fat syringe and inject that into everyone.
Speaker 1 00:58:31 We've probably got time for maybe two more GPS, trivial pursuit questions, let's talk football. Cause you mentioned football. What GPS school heads, the lists of football, premier ships.
Speaker 2 00:58:46 Uh, I'm gonna go with, I don't know, I'm not sure about football GPS because I'm going to go. Maybe <inaudible>,
Speaker 1 00:58:55 I'm really surprised with your answer because there only can be one answer it's St. Joseph's Nudgee college with nine weeks. Do you have any the Southport school have, Oh, that have a couple, three, three, well done. So we are only three times as good again at soccer. Yes. Yes. Like what does the next part of Nathan grades life in the coaching arena look like where you want it to go and what's the impact you want to have?
Speaker 2 00:59:24 Yeah, for me, it's, um, it's an opportunity to, to head up the program somewhere and head coach potentially that that opportunity might arise with the under twenties, with the Australian and the twenties with the junior side of which I'm super excited about the ability to, you know, all the things that we've sort of spoken about that I really love about coaching is the ability to pass on knowledge and, and motivate and be involved in a team, trying to be the best they possibly can is something that I'm really looking forward to. And, you know, knowing that those players are gonna progress through to the wallabies and be the ultimate players for Australia is something that I find really exciting to be involved in. So you can see, you know, the current crop of wallabies that are playing. There's a number of those guys who played in the under twenties last year and the last couple of years. So that pathway there for players is, is very clear and getting that pathway right is really important because if you can get that right, then they're going to go into that Wallaby environment and can, can slow down and can perform straightaway.
Speaker 1 01:00:31 Fantastic mate, one more trivial pursuit question out of swimming, tennis and track and field, which school Nadji college or TSS has the most number of aggregated wins in premierships.
Speaker 2 01:00:51 I'm going to have to go with Nudgee college. Well done,
Speaker 1 01:00:56 Absolutely correct. Matching leads, TSS on all three of those tables, just so you're aware
Speaker 2 01:01:04 What a sporting institution you said it,
Speaker 1 01:01:10 But how can our listeners get hold of you?
Speaker 2 01:01:12 If you can get ahold of [email protected]
and more than happy to share the fat swap ideas. And, um, yeah,
Speaker 1 01:01:22 I would just want to say Mike, you've been a great sport on the show today. I really appreciate your comments, your experience, both as a player and as a coach, uh, it was fantastic to meet you through, you know, Joey Peters and the GPL stuff that she's doing. Well, I think it's really exciting your mindset as a leader, but also as a former player in a, in a future or a coach today, but certainly a future coach of, of potentially the wallabies in, into the future really exciting stuff, mate. So well done on what you're doing well done on your mindset. Thank you for being a guest on the cultural things podcast today.
Speaker 2 01:01:54 No worries, Brennan really appreciate it. And thanks to you. It's on. And yet all this is out there. The culture of things is where it's at. So thanks for having me on board.
Speaker 1 01:02:03 Absolute pleasure mate. Thank you. And before we do go, I have time for one final GPS troop issue, question
Speaker 2 01:02:10 Out of chess
Speaker 1 01:02:12 And debating which school NACI college or TSS has won premierships
Speaker 2 01:02:21 TSS. Cause they're more a huge where, so I'm thinking of chess using the mind and what was the other one? Chess and biting. Yeah. Where clearly young fellows on the gold coast, trying to argue their way out of something that I haven't done. I got to be more successful than the Nadji college,
Speaker 1 01:02:45 But it's a pretty reasonable guess. It's not quite right because they close very close. Very, you only had to two to choose from. Now. This one was a bit of a trick question because both schools, at least in chess and debating are as crap as each other, both have never won a premiership or chess or debating. Well, thanks for being the guest buddy.
Speaker 1 01:03:20 So much of what Nathan shared involve looking at himself and what impact he had individually or as part of the team, whether that be as a player or coach that self-reflection and self-awareness is so critical to improving as a person. And as a leader, Nathan mentioned during this interview about a possible opportunity to take on the head coach role of the junior Wallabees under twenties team, since recording Nathan has been confirmed as the head coach well done, Nathan, based on your mindset around culture leadership and teamwork, rugby Australia, and the junior wallabies are very lucky to have you on board. These were my three key takeaways from my conversation with Nathan. My first key takeaway leaders have a high level of self-awareness. They understand their own strengths and weaknesses and how to leverage these for the betterment of the team. They aware of the impact, their actions and behaviors have on the team and may create opportunities for feedback to continue to gain a better understanding of how people perceive them.
Speaker 1 01:04:27 This helps drive their high level of self-awareness. My second key takeaway leaders are passionate about helping people improve. They love searching for opportunities to help people get better. They love helping people perform at their best and they love motivating people to be their best. Helping people improve is the fuel that powers all great leaders. My third key takeaway, keep the great team players and get rid of the vampires. If you want to build an I grade team, you have to develop I grade players and get rid of the C grade players. The difference between a potential A-grade player and definite C grade player is their behaviors like a vampire. A person with the wrong behaviors will suck the blood out of a team and organization. Get rid of the van pause quickly, allowing you to put your time into developing the great team players. So in summary, my three key takeaways were leaders have a high level of self-awareness late as a passionate about helping people improve and keep the great team players and get rid of the vampires. Before I go, I wanted to give a shout out to a friend and ex work colleague, Gary Wotherspoon. He's a champion bloke who I learned a lot from in my days in the corporate world. Gaz. I want to say thank you for listening and thank you for your help and support over the years. It means a lot. If you have any questions or feedback about this episode, please feel free to send me a [email protected]
. Thank you for listening. Stay safe until next time.
Speaker 0 01:06:22 Thank you for listening to the culture things podcast with Brendan Rogers, please visit Brendan rogers.com to access the show notes. If you love the cultural things podcast, please subscribe, rate, and give a review on Apple podcasts and remember healthy culture is your competitive advantage.